History Made Every Day™

The History Channel: In August 2005, John Chatterton and Richie Kohler, hosts of Deep Sea Detectives, led an expedition to the wreck of RMS Titanic. Diving 2 1/2 miles down in Russian submersibles, they searched outside the known debris field for new evidence.

For four months, a team of historians, marine architects, and engineers has been conducting a forensic analysis of this find. All agree that it's the most significant new discovery since the wreck was located in 1985.

John: What do you think?

Richie: We've raised a lot of new questions. What do you have? Of course, my mom is probably out there...

Lee: Who had the idea to search for new physical evidence of how the Titanic sank?

John: Everything for this expedition started with David Concannon.

Michael: What was it like to find the Titanic?

Richie: As a shipwreck diver, if the Andrea Doria was the Mount Everest of diving, the Titanic is the moon. Few things were as exciting as a single dive on the Titanic.

Roger: When they said on this program that you passed your personal depth record, I was able to say that five seconds after I got in the water!

John: I don't think Roger's wife will let him hang out with us any more.

Richie: We have ruined Roger.

Roger: Very few people have gone as deep on their first dive as I have!

Jack Thayer: Did you really see ghosts on the ship wreck?

Richie: I was in awe of the wreck of Titanic until I came to the stern section. There the destruction and violence was evident, and then the cost in human lives really came to the forefront.

John: Visiting the wreck is obviously a very emotional experience. Bob Blumberg from the State Department was moved to say a prayer for the dead aloud when he first saw the wreck of Titanic.

Parks: As a forensic analyst, to be inside the wreck, for instance in the Marconi room, and to see the last switch positions on the switchboard that Harold Bride last touched before he left that space really connects you with the crew of that time. You see their last actions and it bridges the gap of almost a hundred years. Titanic is still alive. The wreck still has stories to tell to those who will listen.

Brittany: How far is the Titanic under water

Roger: 12,500 feet.

Matthew Twillman: Will they even raise the Titanic?

Richie: I hope not. I think that, short of scientific investigation and analysis of steel components, I hope that they leave Titanic alone. Enough artifacts have been found to put in museums to keep the memories alive, and unless they can find something significant we can learn about what happened that night, I think it should be left alone.

John: I think the wreck needs to remain accessible to future explorers and future expeditions.

sunkorg: There's a sketch by Jack Thayer indicating that the bow rose back up out of the water even as the stern stood in the air at a 60 degree angle. Possible, considering the new sinking theory? Roger: It's possible that the fore part of the bow rebounded, but I don't think it's very likely. You may well have seen the funnels were falling, and there were other things in the water. I think that's something we'll never know. We're in the early stages of looking at the details of the break and the sinking and I don't see the bow coming up again, but it's not ruled out.

Parks: I agree with Roger.

stang62585: Can anybody with enough money take an expedition to the Titanic?

John: I would say yes, but you have to cooperate with the weather.

Richie: From what I can see, most of the people who actually go to the Titanic have too much money.

Richie: Except our expedition!

Parks: The new protection treaty that's in place in NOAA (National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration) have been appointed stewardship of the wreck with the intention of insuring that those who visit the wreck will do so with prior clearance and will treat it with the proper respect.

NJ Wreck Diver: It seems as if the era for single-handed discoveries is over, and that recent discoveries and fame are reserved for larger, funded teams such as those seen in the show tonight. For divers like myself looking for more excitement, is there anything newer divers can do to grasp part of this ending era, or are individual adventures reserved for veteran divers?

Richie: I disagree totally. There are lots of new discoveries being made every day in water as shallow as 70 feet but you'll never find them if you stay in your living room!

John: The big expeditions do seem to make the headlines, but there are significant discoveries to be made in the oceans, lakes, and rivers for people who are willing to look at things from a different perspective. If you just follow down the path everyone else has gone down, you're not going to see anything different.

Dalton: How much weight was Titanic suppose to be able to hold?

Parks: It displaced approximately 45,000 tons. It was not excessively loaded on her maiden voyage. I cannot give an exact figure off the top of my head, but it carried a normal load of cargo and less than a full complement of passengers.

Roger: She was a relatively light ship for a ship of her type. The Cunard ships were quite a bit heavier. People don't realize how unimaginably delicate ships of this size are, even today. We think because they are large that they are strong, but if you had a four foot model of the Titanic that was scale in strength as well as size, you would make it out of tissue paper and tin foil. It would be impossible to pick it up without denting it. If you tried to pick it up by the middle, it would fold over your hand.

Kenny V: How can I become a member of the Titanic team and/or historic society? I can provide details of my many years of study, knowledge and experience.

John: The Titanic Historical Society openly accepts new members. As far as our team and future expeditions, we have a waiting list of people looking to carry our bags. First up is my wife!

Neptunes eagle: Richie, it is clear that you were quite moved by your experience on the wreck. Having experienced it firsthand, what would you say is the strongest message this event leaves on history?

Richie: That as men, we are not infallible. That we are often at our best when things are at their worst. I think the sacrifice of the men and the conduct of the people on board Titanic as the lifeboats were being cut away is a perfect example.

meow2: Why do you think that after 100 years, people are still interested in Titanic

Richie: Number one, she was at the time the largest moving object built by men. She sank on her maiden voyage, not due to a storm or war, but she sank on a calm night and encompassed every segment of society from the richest of the rich to the poorest of the poor. When she sank, they were all equal in the water.

John: I think people are in love with Titanic because of the human drama. Literally more than 2000 people having to face life and death decisions in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.

Parks: Titanic was one of the most well documented ships of her period. The disaster was one of the most well documented disasters of all time. And yet we still don't know everything about her. We argue over what happened that night to both people and ship. A lot of movies, documentaries, and shows about Titanic have concentrated on the human element, and with this show we're starting to look seriously at the story of the ship. So we've only covered half of the story and we're starting to get an idea of what is left to tell.

Amber J: Have you discovered anything new from the information you collected since the show was made that was not mentioned in tonight's broadcast?

Roger: One of the difficult points on the theory of the hull breaking at the low angle means it broke at a low stress level. We know how strong the designers wanted to make a ship like that. For a ship to have broken at such a low angle, the hull would not have been as strong as the designers expected it to be. It didn't break because of this weakness, the higher angle the ship reaches in the water the more strain on it So the designers would have expected her to withstand a 30-40 degree angle. For the low angle theory to be possible, it had to be a weakness in the ship.

Roger: At the Wood's Hole conference, Simon Mills brought a portion of an original plan of the structure of the ship and there is a design feature of the ship which is too complex to explain here tonight. But it was giving ship designers trouble as late as the 1960s In fact it has been pretty much abandoned. Its implementation in the Titanic was very crude and primitive. This along with some other factors makes it possible to propose that the ship broke at such a low angle. This is not a criticism of the ship's designers because remember at this time, airplanes were still made out of cloth stretched over wood. Titanic's designers were dealing with some very sophisticated structural concepts Naval Architecture never really perfected.

Parks: As I was watching the show tonight, I saw three things that I have never seen before and want to follow up with. There are additional pieces of the ship lying out there that are going to help get us closer to the truth. With each new discovery, we may not answer every question that we have about Titanic, but we keep getting closer to the truth. I have already started compiling a list of objects, clues of which we found in this expedition, that need to be followed up on.

John: Explorers and documentary makers have a tendency to add finality to their work. They don't necessarily need to, but it is the way that we close out an expedition. Ultimately, there is always more to learn.

TC: As a school teacher, what would you have passed on into the classroom to students about the Titanic

Richie: Never accept written history at face value. Question everything.

John: History is a work in progress.

Dalton: How many people survived, they say only Rose survived.

Richie: I'm not touching that one, and we didn't find the heart of the ocean either!

Parks: There were approximately 705 survivors, give or take one or two. They're still arguing about that today.

Michael: Was the heart of the ocean ever found?

Richie: See previous answer :-)

Mr Titanic: I have a question, the dining Room: Walter Lord's sources state the room was carpeted. However, exploration has revealed linoleum tiles. Therefore, is it possible the carpeting has dissolved, or never existed at all? Your opinions are appreciated. I do know, however, the Reception Room was carpeted.

Parks: We have recovered tile pieces that have definitely come from the first class dining saloon. Photographs of Titanic's sister ship Olympic show the same linoleum pattern in the dining saloon. Ships that still exist today like the Queen Mary do not carpet their eating areas because carpet captures spilled food and drink and it becomes a maintenance problem. Also, the dining room chairs were attached to the floor in such a way that they could slide in and out a short distance from the table. All of these facts argue against there being a carpet in the dining saloon itself.

Poindexter: Locating the Ribbons of steel, and not finding it and unsure if they were in the correct area, I understand GPS doesn't work underwater, but isn't there any other mapping or locating methods one can use underwater?

John: Navigation on the bottom is highly technical matter in 12000 plus feet of water. Transponders are placed on the bottom for each expedition, and that gives you the ability to set up your own coordinates and you can repeatedly return to the same location with pretty good reliability on that expedition. Where we run into technical difficulties is either translating locations from expedition to expedition, or in translating any bottom location to surface latitude/longitude.

Parks: Your question highlights the need for a comprehensive mapping database of the wreck and surrounding debris fields. Various organizations have explored the wreck and used their own reference data to locate found items. An effort must be made to collect and synchronize these databases so we can build one consistent mapping of the wreck site.

boomer: What was it like when you first saw the ship and the thoughts just started rushing into your head?

Richie: If you watched the program, that was my bona fide reaction. I knew there was a camera behind my head, but you just can't help realizing that you are on the iconic shipwreck. This is Titanic,. And there's just no words that can convey the excitement and happiness that you feel at that moment.

Roger: I know what my 6th, 27th, and 50th thoughts were - there are a lot of jagged steel down there and I kept thinking, "Don't get stuck!"

John: You have to remember that preparation starts long before the boat leaves the dock, then there's the trip to the wreck, preparation of the MIRs, and then a 2 and a half hour descent. Topside, there is well over 100 people supporting the divers on the bottom. So you have all of this momentum and when you see Titanic, that's what it's all about.

Parks: Prior to my dive, I had studied numerous dive videos of the wreck. Immediately before my dive, I practically memorized over 6200 high definition images of the wreck taken in 2004, and I thought I was well prepared for the sight of the ship when I finally saw it. I was not. It was larger in scale than I expected, and what impressed me most was seeing it as a three dimensional object, not a picture in some book or image on my TV. It was breathtaking. It's the only word I can come up with.

dark angel: Will there ever be another Titanic?

Richie: No.

John: My wife and I were aboard the Queen Mary II when she recently grounded in Fort Lauderdale. Who knows what's possible.

Christie: I am an eleven year old girl who is amazed at what you do and would love to one day see the Titanic for myself. What would I have to study in college in order to do what you do?

John: What are you doing up this late? Don't you have school in the morning? And therein lies the answer.

Roger: Study something where you will make a LOT of money!

John: Like television hosting... :-)

Parks: It doesn't matter what you study, it matters what you do and what interests you pursue.

Julianne: Do the dives to Titanic in any way damage the ship.

Richie: We never touched the main body of the wreck. In MIR 2, when we did touch wreckage, it was by accident and it was only a gentle rub. So to the extent of my dives, the answer is no.

John: You touched on something that is definitely controversial. What sort of impact on any site is acceptable in the name of exploration? That's the question.

Parks: If man never visits Titanic ever again, it will still rust away. Titanic still has stories to tell. This past year, we found art deep inside the wreck. We saw the colored tiles of the Turkish bath. We saw the Celtic designed etched glass privacy screen that Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon looked at every night in his cabin. The most famous wireless transmitter in the world is still sitting intact inside the wreck with a roof overhead that is dissolving away, and will soon collapse burying that precious treasure forever. Any damage unintentionally inflicted by explorers is a very small price to pay for the priceless information that we are getting from the wreck before nature takes it away from us all.

John: Obviously we do everything we can to avoid any sort of impact with the wreck, as this poses a high level of risk to the submersibles.

Mecko Gecko: How willing has the Titanic community been to accept the new theory behind the sinking?

Roger: On some websites, the level of outrage is pretty high, even with just the snippet of information that came out in the last week. People were condemning this before they even saw the show. So tomorrow should be interesting!

John: Since Titanic struck the iceberg, it has been surrounded by controversy. Tomorrow will be no different.

Richie:But now we have given them something new to argue about.

John Doe: Do you think that we will be able to uncover most of Titanic mysteries before the ship decays? And if so, what questions do you most want answered?

Richie: I hope so. And where is the heart of the ocean?

Roger: There is one particular piece of steel that there is a good chance of finding. We have a lot of information as to where to look. There is a particular crack in that piece of steel that would go a long way to telling us if the low break theory is probable.

John: I think we will continue to learn about Titanic, but in all honesty I don't believe we'll ever know everything.

Roger: Remember the Kennedy assassination happened in broad daylight with video tape, audio tape, and security and 40 years later we still can't agree.

James06: Were any of the items recovered from Titanic returned to the original owner or their families?

Richie: Not to the best of my knowledge, although I have heard that some families have tried litigating for the return of certain items.

Parks: Passenger histories are not my specialty. But I have heard of some artifacts recovered from the ocean floor or maybe they were on recovered bodies that were found floating on the surface that were returned to the families, but they were personal effects only.

raven: I have a piece of coal from the Titanic...if I would like this piece of coal returned to the crash site, is there any way to get that accomplished?

Roger: I saw miles and miles and miles of coal. It's hard to imagine putting any back.

John: Your impulse certainly seems noble. But it certainly on the other hand could be a can of worms. Putting back something like coal could possibly be seen as polluting the site.

Roger: We were trying in the expedition at one point to determine whether the coal we were looking at came from the galley fuel, or the fuel for the ship's engines. We brought up one piece to test. It would be too bad in the future if the one piece somebody brought up was your piece in the wrong place.

Richie: When we were done with our test, the coal that we had recovered was immediately returned to the wreck site.

Jack Thayer: What most preserved artifact have you found on the ship wreck?

Richie: All of the objects of porcelain and bronze look almost as good as when Titanic went down. Brass as well.

History Channel: Thank you for a great chat. Unfortunately we are almost out of time. Do you have any parting words for us?

Richie: We found and documented some very interesting and new things. We've also raised many more questions. I personally would like to go back and find answers to those questions.

John: I am incredibly grateful to have had the opportunity to work with so many talented and motivated people on this project. I would like to take this opportunity to thank them.

Roger: John you beat me to it, so ditto to that.

Parks: It's kind of a ditto, but it goes the other way - I want to thank Lone Wolf Documentary Group for allowing me to participate in an analysis of their find. This is the kind of work that brought me to Titanic, and the experience was fantastic. I fall short of words. It was a wonderful experience, it was a great and easygoing team to work with. But most of all, I appreciate the fact that Lone Wolf did not operate with an agenda and were willing to consider all manners of interpretations of the evidence.

History Channel: Thanks for chatting. A full transcript of tonight's chat will be available on History.com tomorrow. Good night.

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